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Old 11-23-2019, 11:51 AM   #1
gj940
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Default 012 AMM: engine stalls and runs very rich

So I bought a complete T3/T4 turbo set of a fellow Dutchman. After driving around with the 15G for years I thought it was time to upgrade.

The set consists of a T3/T4 turbo, Green Giants, 012 AMM, custom 7200 rpm chips, wasted spark, AFPR, big Iveco IC and a screamer pipe.
The previous owner ran the turbo at 24 PSI, causing the stock rods to bent of his '98 estate.

Together with a friend we started installing everything and doing some major maintenance at the same time.

After 2,5 day we started the car and it ran pig rich, very rough and stalled after an x amount of time...
It took us another 2,5 day to find out the 012 AMM was the cause. After reinstalling the old 016 AMM the car ran fine. The strange thing was that I had two 012 AMM's (one I bought about a year ago as these are pretty rare), with both AMM's the engine ran terrible. Conclusion: both (second hand) 012's were bad.

So I ordered a brand new 012 AMM. It arrived today and I installed it. Guess what: exactly the same symptons as the other 012's....

The chips I have are custom written especially for the Green Giants and 012 AMM according to the previous owner. The only difference he had in his setup was that he had it installed in the cold side IC piping while I have it in front of the turbo.

BTW: I don't have the big Iveco IC installed just yet as it needs some custom work.

Could anybody explain to me why this setup does not work in my car? I'm out of ideas….





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Last edited by gj940; 11-23-2019 at 05:46 PM..
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Old 11-23-2019, 12:49 PM   #2
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Do you reset the ECU (unplug it or the #1 fuse) when you swap from the 016 to the 012?

With the 012 once it fires it will be fairly rich, go for a quick short drive and cruise afr's should go to stoich after just a few min once the engine is up to temp.

What are the cruise afr's with the 012? or will it not even run?
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Old 11-23-2019, 05:43 PM   #3
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Thanks for your reply.

I did reset the ecu a couple of times. Engine sometimes stalls inmediately, sometimes it runs but very rich (AFR's lower then 10.17, the least my wideband goes) until the plugs turn black and they simply cause the engine to run on a cylinder less...

Best idle run I had was a pulsating idle between 1400 and 2000 rpm, still very rich. Driving it is not even an option.
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Old 11-23-2019, 10:07 PM   #4
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I find it odd that more than one 012 is bad, but I guess it can happen. Is the hotwire still intact?

Personally Green Giants are not large enough on pump gas to require the 012amm. You need much larger injectors ideally for it. Being that the chip is tuned for it and the AMM was on the other side there could be something funky going on.

Try the stock chip with the injectors and 012 amm and see how that runs.
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Old 11-24-2019, 04:21 AM   #5
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I would start out with a stock LH chip and change injector constant and AMM tables (for 012).
I had decent results with that. I also have a good 012 if you ever need it.

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Old 11-24-2019, 08:33 AM   #6
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I agree that it would be very odd that 3 AMM's are bad. The two second hand ones came out of running cars and the other one is new (although aftermarket).

I thought Green Giants were the perfect combination with the 012 AMM?

I did try my old 954 ECU which has a mild blabla chip in it which I used for about 8 years with the 15G turbo. Its fine at idle and cruise with the 016 AMM but running too lean ones boost comes in. Using the old ECU with the 012 AMM results in exact the same symptoms as with the custom tuned 984 ECU.
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Old 11-26-2019, 11:48 AM   #7
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So I switched back to the stock Volvo ECU chip. Tried it first with the Green Giants and 3" AMM. Ran way too rich again.

Switched back to the stock AMM and it runs like it should do, at least when I'm not making boost.

How come the stock ECU chips accepts the biggers injectors (and 3,5 bar fuel pressure) that easily?
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Old 11-27-2019, 06:27 AM   #8
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seem you use 55lb/min green injector ?
this quite big flow,
try reduce Fuel pressure to 2.5-3.0 bar at first.
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Old 11-28-2019, 03:18 AM   #9
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I got the 42 lb/min Green Giants. Currently at 3,5 bar. Stock Volvo ECU chip.

What I don't get is why LH runs way too rich when the 012 AMM is installed (all 3 012's that I got show the same AFR's). It should lean out instead of running richer right?
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Old 11-28-2019, 04:04 PM   #10
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I have the same BOSCH injectors running with my 012 AMM, and I don't have pig rich idle, nor running. I currently have my boost set via MBC that stabilizes at 15 psi (no data logs, LH2.4), and am seeing WOT AFR's near 11.5. I am running the stock FPR with 3.0bar. I don't have your cone filter on the AMM, but rather am using the factory air box with a few mods for more flow. I have TLAO chips for both ECUs. Lastly, I will say that I have not put enough WOT testing on this setup to confirm that I am satisfied with fueling.

Edit of 1.11.20 - My most recent proving grounds WOT runs have me a bit richer than I would like at 11.5...... I may test the "blue" 850 injectors in the future, as It appears I am being OVER fueled with the green R injectors (42#/hr). No Ostrich yet...... not sure I want to invest the time into perfecting the fueling tables.....

Original Edit - I didn't notice, but were you already running high Z injectors? I'll presume you already have removed your original injector resistor pack and soldered all the leads together? I also just noted you have the AMM on the intake side rather than the turbo inlet. I've seen folks do this, but I have no experience with that setup.
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Last edited by DET17; 01-11-2020 at 07:42 AM.. Reason: Most recent WOT testing, AFRs & boost 1.11.20
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Old 11-30-2019, 03:14 AM   #11
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I have an AMM question that isn't worth a thread. I ripped a completely failed 016 apart recently. Noticed next to the harness connector, what looks like casting and connectors for a separate round connector. It looks like it would have two conductors. What is that? Was this connector ever used?
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Old 11-30-2019, 07:03 AM   #12
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Thanks for your reply DET17. Currently I'm running the AMM before the turbo. Strange thing is that I bought a complete set that worked for 1,5 year with the previous owner. So with the 3"AMM.
I now have 3 Ecu's (one 954 and two 984's) and tried them with all three 012 AMM's that I have and with the stock Volvo chip, a mildly tuned chip and the agressive chip that came with the set. All results are roughly the same: Very rich pulsating idle.
I guess I have to stick with the 016 AMM. I just would love to know why the setup worked with the previous owner and not with me.

When I installed the high Z injectors I did remove the resistor pack and soldered the leads together.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:40 PM   #13
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Ah more info, rich pulsating idle, have you pressure tested the car for Vac leaks/boost leaks? A leak will typically cause a hunting idle. Because of the large scaling difference in fueling small issues will cause larger problems.
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Old 11-30-2019, 11:38 PM   #14
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I tried a 3 inch AMM on my car. Same problem but I had the AMM right on the turbo with a 2.5 to 3 inch sleave then the airfilter was stack right on the AMM. I know alot of people have ran a set up like this with no problem. But my car would not idle very well and would die and was surging. So I put together a set up that moved the AMM away from the turbo kinda like stock. Fixed. Runs great now. Could of been a fluke deal but I think it messed with the meter being so close to the compressor wheel. May your setup different but thought Id offer my little experience.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:33 PM   #15
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Thanks again for all your input guys.

The hunting idle only happens with the 3" AMM, not with the original one.

90Volvo: I'll try your idea although it sounds kind of weird. Willing to try anything at this stage.
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Old 12-09-2019, 08:29 AM   #16
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You have buy a new 012 AMM ... from china ?
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Old 12-10-2019, 11:46 AM   #17
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It's not a Chinabay AMM WTF99, although it's not a Bosch one.

All three 012 AMM's show the same rich pulsating idle, I tried to put the AMM location further away from the turbo, no result unfortunately.

I have to admit that it seems that idle is also not as stable as it was before. So I set the idle rpm again following the Volvo procedure, I tested the TPS, replaced the intake and throttle body gasket, cleaned the throttle body, replaced the IAC, replaced both IAC hoses (both were showing beginning cracks) and I switched back to the stock injectors.

Idle is a bit better but still not as stable as it used to be….

Seems like it's not a AMM issue but an idle issue. Have to solve that first and make sure that the basics are perfect.

Last edited by gj940; 12-10-2019 at 11:58 AM..
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Old 12-13-2019, 08:54 PM   #18
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Is the narrow band o2 sensor on your LH switching properly at idle? Try reading the vacuum at idle and see if there isn't something sneaky like a vacuum leak. A typical 4 cylinder hot idle vacuum is 18-22inhg. If it's lower there is probably a vacuum leak or a leak past the throttle body.
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Old 12-13-2019, 09:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
Is the narrow band o2 sensor on your LH switching properly at idle? Try reading the vacuum at idle and see if there isn't something sneaky like a vacuum leak. A typical 4 cylinder hot idle vacuum is 18-22inhg. If it's lower there is probably a vacuum leak or a leak past the throttle body.
Unless you have a hot cam in which case the idle is around 11-14in hg because of overlap and stuff.
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Old 12-14-2019, 05:49 AM   #20
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Thanks again for all your replies guys.

I swapped the O2 sensor yesterday when redoing a part of the exhaust. Didn't help. While doing that I took off the turbo and exhaust manifold just to check if they had been installed the correct way and everything seems fine. Switched the fuel pump for a Walbro (was on my to do list, didn't suspect that as the cause for the bad idle).

I do have a new knock and temperature sender that I will install while taking apart the whole intake part again. It's my daily so I can't just take it apart whenever I want. Can't find any vacuum leaks so far apart from the two AIC valve hoses which showed beginning cracks but those I replaced.

Any reason to suspect the oil separator? I did replace that while installing the bigger turbo.

I will do a compression test as well, just to make sure I did not do something wrong while installing the new head gasket.

Idle drops down to whatever it wants, sometimes it's fine but usually to around 400 rpm but also to zero. Gotta drive it with two feet when stopping (auto trans).
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Old 01-10-2020, 02:51 PM   #21
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Well I finally found the solution: relocating the amm from pre turbo to cold side intercooler did solve the issue. Now I would like to know why...? I do have to say that the turbo is pretty worn out and it's a cheap ebay one. But I never heard of a turbo thats leaks air or vacuum...the intercooler and the piping are fine.
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Old 01-10-2020, 06:58 PM   #22
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I have seen many a turbo that leak, the backing plate seal on garrets and mitsu's are known to leak and cause issues.

Either way a pressure test with some soapy water can find all kinds of leaks.
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Old 01-10-2020, 10:40 PM   #23
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If that's LH 2.2 try running lower fuel pressure such as BMW 2.5 Bar (actually 2.7 Bar) fuel pressure regulator.
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Old 01-11-2020, 07:49 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thelostartof View Post
I have seen many a turbo that leak, the backing plate seal on garrets and mitsu's are known to leak and cause issues.
How could a leaky China-bay turbo cause an idle issue? Certainly I understand leakage under load, but not at idle when his turbo is far off the operating "islands". Anyone with specific experience about compressor side leaks, please share......

Directionally, I like the idea of the AMM right in front of the intake on the cold side of the FMIC...... makes me wonder why the factory engineers didn't do it that way (as on the NA versions). Certainly they had their reasons.

Is the OP running an IAC valve, or not? I missed that detail.
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Old 01-11-2020, 09:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DET17 View Post
Directionally, I like the idea of the AMM right in front of the intake on the cold side of the FMIC...... makes me wonder why the factory engineers didn't do it that way (as on the NA versions). Certainly they had their reasons.

I know as the oil starts coming from your turbo it'll make its way onto the hot wire scewing the readings or potentially damage the wire. 012 amms aren't the cheapest either (compared to 016s)

Maybe just clean it way more often if your turbo is leaking a little oil.
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