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Wastegate failure?

SwedishKnievel

New member
Joined
Sep 16, 2013
Location
Los Angeles
1994 B230FT Boost went to 200+ Kpa. Couple of questions:

1) Any reason I shouldn't test wastegate operation using regulated compressed air?
2) Does the compressed air pressure that operates the wastegate correspond to the boost pressure at which the wastegate should open? Or, does the exhaust gas pressure affect that whole system?
3) Assuming the wastegate is, uh hum, wasted, are parts available?
4) Any proven alternatives to the built-in wastegate?

Thanks
 
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1) No, blow air in it and see if it opens.
2) The WG doesn't open and close at a specific pressure - it starts to open at one pressure, and is fully open at another. This doesn't exactly relate to any specific regulated boost pressure - but they travel in fairly close formation. The exhaust pressure pressing on the WG flapper probably has some effect, but it's fairly small.

Don't know about the others. Back when I still have a Volvo turbo (and a Volvo engine, lol) I just made a bracket and put an aftermarket WG actuator on it.
 
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1) Not particularly other than it only takes a few psi to test and a hand pump is easy to use
2) Yes, the WG is pushed open by boost pressure only. When it opens is controlled by the length of the rod (and the spring inside the diaphragm, which I believe is not accessible on these cars)
 
I assume you are diagnosing an increase in boost?

I don't know which turbo you run, but is the hose from the turbo intake side to the actuator cracked, split or disconnected? Do you have a boost controller wired in backwards?

I have had both of those problems which caused the waste gate not to open.

At Sonoma I had a dramatic boost increase, when I pulled the head it had a burnt exhaust valve on cylinder 1. I just got the head back from the machine shop and will be firing it up today to see if it fixes that problem.

If you are running the stock TD04, I have one that I will never use.
 
1) that's fine

2) both pressure on the diaphragm (boost) and exhaust pressure pushing on the puck. (pre-turbine exhaust pressure). both exert force on the spring in the canister.

3) yes

4) if you're going with an aftermarket one, make sure it's got enough spring in it.

what was it before it jumped up over 15psi?
 
Wow, great responses. Thank you so much.

To answer a few of the questions:
1. I've checked all the lines and everything holds pressure;
2. I do have a MBC but I checked it after I installed. I only operated it wide open (complete bypass). I did check the flow though.
3. This was the first time I ran the motor. MAP went straight to 200.
4. Yes, we are running the TD04 and I will gladly take it off your hands, @rb92673! You are even in SoCal.
5. This looks to be as close to stock replacement as any, correct? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Actu...643398?hash=item2aca7a5d86:g:BCsAAOxydlFS-~nK

Thanks again.
 
Would an adjustable actuator be better? Then you could just get rid of the boost controller. It doesn?t look like the cost that much more.
 
Depends on your plans with the motor. If you want variable boost, just get a regular WG. If you just want the same boost all the time, get the adjustable and no boost controller.

On my 16V I was using Megasquirt to control the boost, so I could do various things with it. Different peak boost for gas vs E85 (or mixes of the two), lower boost at part throttle to make the pedal response more linear, low boost until the engine was warmed up. Heh, even a dash switch to turn boost control off so it would sit at base WG pressure (8 psi).
 
Depends on your plans with the motor. If you want variable boost, just get a regular WG. If you just want the same boost all the time, get the adjustable and no boost controller.

On my 16V I was using Megasquirt to control the boost, so I could do various things with it. Different peak boost for gas vs E85 (or mixes of the two), lower boost at part throttle to make the pedal response more linear, low boost until the engine was warmed up. Heh, even a dash switch to turn boost control off so it would sit at base WG pressure (8 psi).

Both the OP and I are running MicroSquirt. That would be interesting to me, except for the E85. I had researched using MicroSquirt for boost control, but I did not find anybody that was successful.

What did you use to control the wastegate? Which version of Megasquirt were you using?

Sorry to hijack SwedishKneival.
 
The first iteration of the 16V I was using MS1 with an add-on circuit on a daughter card, and a GM Typhoon boost control valve. The second iteration was using MS3X and the built in (err.. bolted on?) boost control valve on the BW EFR turbo.

I really tried to make closed loop boost control (where you set the boost targets and let the software figure out the duty cycles) but I could never get it to work properly. I tried a lot, occasionally I'd get something that sort of seemed like it was trying to work, but it would surge, other times it would pick a lower boost pressure and hang on to it. I just gave up and used fixed duty cycle - with the table of throttle position by RPM.

The boost/duty cycle by throttle position really improved the drivability (IMO). Small motor with a big(ish) turbo means there isn't always a lot of room between putt putt off boost and OMGITSPOOLEDHANGON WOT. Scaling the boost up from 7, 8 psi base WG pressure up to 22, 24 psi at WOT made it work really well. As a side benefit, it also stopped the arguments between the turbo and the cruise control (booooost, throttle closed, slow down, throttle open, boooost, throttle closed).

The E85 part was just using the second set of tables. First iteration I didn't have a flex fuel sensor, jsut a dash switch for E85/gas, and I used the nitrous on functionality to switch to different spark/fuel/boost tables for E85. The MS3X setup used a GM flex fuel sensor and it would interpolate between the different table sets basedon the fuel % (in an adjustable curve, because a little ethanol goes a long way).
 
So here is the update: I put the turbo on the bench and tested the waste-gate with regulated compressed air (8-12psi). It seems to work fine. I then plumbed together the MBC exactly as it was plumbed on the motor, same thing. Here are a couple of facts:

1. System parameters: Microsquirt; GM 3-bar MAP sensor plumbed to the intake manifold on the motor side of the throttle body; manual boost controller plumbed from a port in the outflow side of the inter-cooler charge tube to the waste-gate. TD04-13c turbo. 3" down tube.

2. Under WOT in 4th gear saw MAP in the range of 200-219 Kpa. This was with the MBC in the wide-open condition. Essentially unregulated flow.

3. As a result of this and a lack of spark-table/boost-scale discipline, experienced a bit of detonation that resulted in a seriously burnt valve among other damage.

Any idea what's going on here?
 
So here is the update: I put the turbo on the bench and tested the waste-gate with regulated compressed air (8-12psi). It seems to work fine. I then plumbed together the MBC exactly as it was plumbed on the motor, same thing. Here are a couple of facts:

1. System parameters: Microsquirt; GM 3-bar MAP sensor plumbed to the intake manifold on the motor side of the throttle body; manual boost controller plumbed from a port in the outflow side of the inter-cooler charge tube to the waste-gate. TD04-13c turbo. 3" down tube.

2. Under WOT in 4th gear saw MAP in the range of 200-219 Kpa. This was with the MBC in the wide-open condition. Essentially unregulated flow.

3. As a result of this and a lack of spark-table/boost-scale discipline, experienced a bit of detonation that resulted in a seriously burnt valve among other damage.

Any idea what's going on here?

Prior to the boost increase, did you make any changes to the engine, exhaust system, tuning, anything?
 
Well, yes and no. This was the first running of the motor since the bottom end was rebuilt. Nothing fancy just 97mm pistons. Everything else stock. The biggest change was the introduction of the MBC. Like I said, the MBC signal came from the intake charge pipe between the intercooler and the throttle body. I ran the MBC "wide open" so there should have been no pressure regulation occurring. This is how it tested on the bench as well -- where it worked as expected. Otherwise the ECU program was the same as was everything else.



Prior to the boost increase, did you make any changes to the engine, exhaust system, tuning, anything?
 
Well, yes and no. This was the first running of the motor since the bottom end was rebuilt. Nothing fancy just 97mm pistons. Everything else stock. The biggest change was the introduction of the MBC. Like I said, the MBC signal came from the intake charge pipe between the intercooler and the throttle body. I ran the MBC "wide open" so there should have been no pressure regulation occurring. This is how it tested on the bench as well -- where it worked as expected. Otherwise the ECU program was the same as was everything else.

Opening the MBC valve up all the way will give max bleed from the boost signal line and therefore hold the wastegate closed up to a higher pressure. Is that what you mean by "wide open?" If so, close the valve (loosen the screw).

Typically you would want to take the boost reference from the port on the compressor housing near the outlet. By referencing boost post-intercooler you are adding the pressure loss across the intercooler and charge plumbing, which will in turn raise the boost level as measured at the compressor housing outlet.

Where is your boost gauge signal reference - same place as MBC or somewhere else? Intake manifold, I'm assuming.

When we calibrate internal wastegate actuators the typical rule of thumb is to set the actuator preload so that the "boost setting" pressure value happens at 1.00mm (0.040") of actuator rod travel. To measure this we use a dial indicator set up parallel with the rod and measuring rod travel, right on the end, where it connects to the external crank arm on the turbine housing.

There are two force balances acting on a wastegate system: first, you have pre-turbine pressure acting to open the valve (inside the turbine housing), and post-turbine pressure on the other side of the valve. That pressure differential multiplied by valve area gives the opening force on the valve itself. The 2nd force balance is on the actuator rod. You have spring pressure acting to keep the rod retracted (wastegate closed) vs. actuator inlet pressure times diaphragm area acting to extend the rod and open the wastegate valve.

By increasing preload on the rod end you hold the wastegate closed up to a higher reference pressure, and offset the force vs. displacement curve, and reduce the available actuator rod travel. By swapping the actuator spring to a higher rate, you increase the opening pressure but don't affect travel, and more force (therefore more inlet pressure) is now required for the same displacement. By decreasing the inlet pressure signal on the diaphragm with an MBC or EBC, you delay opening the valve until a higher boost reference pressure is reached.
 
Can you take some pics? There are different kinds of manual boost controllers. It certainly sounds like you're turning yours up to 'max' instead of down.

And state where the other end of that hose is attached.
 
I'm out of town now but will get some pictures for y'all when I return. Fairly confident that I had the MBC in the position that would open the wastegate the earliest. There is a +/- on the knob with direction arrows, I confirmed with the written instructions and tested before I connected it.

I also confirmed the plumbing pretty thoroughly.

I am using a hose barb on the charge pipe between the intercooler and the throttlebody as the source for the boost signal. I did this rather than the turbo housing barb after reading about pressure losses through the IC and how they effect wastegate operation. I am using the MAP sensor to measure manifold pressure. The MAP sensor is connected to the intake manifold at one of the ports between the throttle body and the cylinder head.

I am still reading/understanding @Duder's post. Very dense with information...Thank You!
 
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