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Old 01-16-2020, 05:12 PM   #1
Matilda Car
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Default 16t upgrade: low end is meh, looking for opinions

So I upgraded from a 13c to a 16t on my DD and it was not exactly as expected, build listed below. Mid range gave me a super big smile but as I booted about town my smile was turning down. Off the line and around town was sooo sluggish in caparison. This is without a brake stand, not practical on every light!

Now I expected the boost threshold to be moved farther up but not to this degree, the turbo starts to spin up about 2700 rpms and full in at 3000 rpms, not as much of an issue if i drove a manual but because I have a bad hip and knee I can¬’t do that with a DD.

Still running a 563 computer because I find it very forgiving but I have chips in another ecu and ekz, 207 and 967 that I was going to put in but haven¬’t yet because life got in the way and then I started second guessing what I wanted to do with this car.

I have a couple of questions and here¬’s what I am thinking, please give me your thoughts on this:

1. I threw a 1 bar t3 actuator on there, 15 ish psi, and instead I should have put a lower bar on instead and then boosted it up with a mbc. I think that it would spool faster that way? I do like to boot around town a fair bit and it would be nice to move the threshold down a few 100 rpms.

2. The actuator is adjustable, how adjustable are these generally? Could I lengthen the rod enough to lower the boost that much? Guess there is only one way to find out, prob just answered my own question...lol!

My IAC is new, MAF is working within specs, new fuel filter, new 02 sensor, and hoses are either brand new OEM and above or at least pretty new. In tank fuel pump is out of a turbo model and appears to be operating just fine. AfR¬’s are pretty much bang on. Yeah my throttle body could use a cleaning and I really should replace my spark plugs just because I¬’ve been running them for awhile but I don¬’t feel that is the real issue.

Thanks!

Volvo 240 B230FT (94 940T)
Aw71L
Stock Cam
Currently 16T, 13C prior
016 MAF
804 Injectors
90+ exhaust manifold, ported and coated
3 bar fuel regulator
Wideband
DO88 Intercooler and pipes
Custom Aluminum Radiator w/ trans hook up delete
Very large aux trans cooler w/ inline thermostat
Electric fan with PWC style controller
4:10 gears in the diff
Boost/vac, 5 bar oil, volt gauges

I will be upgrading the injectors to about 38lbs (380cc) in the nearish future.

Last edited by Matilda Car; 01-16-2020 at 07:57 PM..
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:17 PM   #2
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Is exhaust still stock?
BTW, wanted to ask your opinion on the intercooler swap.
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:20 PM   #3
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Dude I just realized I forgot that, 3” turbo back no cat with resonator and borla muffler. Except for the downpipe it was installed prior to 16t and then downpipe added - long story there and 16t is flat flanged.
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:22 PM   #4
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BTW, wanted to ask your opinion on the intercooler swap.
Ask away.

I installed it prior to turbo swap and it made a huge difference that I could tell right away, I also installed a catch can at the same time (also missing from my build list). Beyond the sound and feel of the engine you could feel the difference between the hot and cold pipes which I couldn’t before. In the summer I would get pinging sometimes flooring it from a dead stop and running 94 octane, after the swap that disappeared completely.

It is expensive and I have no real comparison to make with it. I was going to have a speed shop make me one but it was basically the same price as the DO88, with the Intercooler, pipes, couplers, and clamps.

It is NOT a straight drop in but needs a tiny bit of work to fit. It sits higher than the 740 turbo Intercooler that was there. It is up close to an inch higher so when you put the clips on the ends stick out and look like ****. I have lots of spare rad clips so, where I wanted the clip to bend back down, I removed a small bit of metal, and bent it 90 deg. I took a chunk out because otherwise there is a sort of lip at the bend. Looks really clean, I will put a picture up when I get back home as that should be clearer.

Last edited by Matilda Car; 01-16-2020 at 08:23 PM.. Reason: Add info
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:33 PM   #5
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Swapping in an MBC, even if leaving the boost at the same level will certainly help. I run an 18psi spring and an MBC on my wagon for that very reason. With an MBC (make sure you don't get a bleed style), you get no pressure until you hit the target, where the wastegate will gradually open as pressure ramps up.

Other things that can help are a tune if it's done right, and cam choice and timing.
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:47 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
Swapping in an MBC, even if leaving the boost at the same level will certainly help. I run an 18psi spring and an MBC on my wagon for that very reason. With an MBC (make sure you don't get a bleed style), you get no pressure until you hit the target, where the wastegate will gradually open as pressure ramps up.

Other things that can help are a tune if it's done right, and cam choice and timing.
Mmmm.... good info, thanks! Any point on an adjustable cam gear with a stock cam? I know ignition timing is not the same as cam timing.
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:09 AM   #7
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Eh, you can lower the powerband a little but depending on what cam you have, you may make the top end less useful. I'm running the IPD cam and found advancing the cam does help bring a little low end. With the stock head it starts hitting a wall around 6k, but with a big valved head, it maintains the low end and doesn't run out up top.
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:43 AM   #8
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Hi

Porting and enlarging the manifold and entry area of the turbine housing will affect spool negatively, the whole point of keeping this area small is to experience early spool with a high speed maintained on the exhaust gases.
1st move should be to replace manifold and exh housing with something that still is stock and unported.

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Old 01-17-2020, 04:53 AM   #9
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My 16t spooled just about as quick as the 13c I had before it. Make sure you don't have any leaks pre turbo and that the waste-gate actuator is adjusted properly. If your wastegate bracket is flexing it can open a little too
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Old 01-17-2020, 05:31 AM   #10
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Even the 60/.63 T3 on my 240 +t spools faster than that. Usable (7psi) boost before 2500 rpm and if lugging engine in high gear around town, boost at 2k rpm. Ported manifold but not excessive, just to match the turbine inlet.
Timing OK? Wastegate closing properly?
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:51 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by mrjaybeeze View Post
1st move should be to replace manifold and exh housing with something that still is stock and unported.

YS
Jaybee
It was really just a light port at the flanges, would it affect spool that much? Or maybe it just adds up.
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:55 AM   #12
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My 16t spooled just about as quick as the 13c I had before it. Make sure you don't have any leaks pre turbo and that the waste-gate actuator is adjusted properly. If your wastegate bracket is flexing it can open a little too
Checked the bracket flex before install and it seemed pretty solid, I will check for leaks again - never hurts. Will check the wastegate for sure as well.
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:59 AM   #13
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Timing OK? Wastegate closing properly?
Will check those, timing belt was done not too long ago, would a failing rpm sensor lead to this?
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Old 01-17-2020, 12:34 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Matilda Car View Post
Ask away.

I installed it prior to turbo swap and it made a huge difference that I could tell right away, I also installed a catch can at the same time (also missing from my build list). Beyond the sound and feel of the engine you could feel the difference between the hot and cold pipes which I couldnít before. In the summer I would get pinging sometimes flooring it from a dead stop and running 94 octane, after the swap that disappeared completely.

It is expensive and I have no real comparison to make with it. I was going to have a speed shop make me one but it was basically the same price as the DO88, with the Intercooler, pipes, couplers, and clamps.

It is NOT a straight drop in but needs a tiny bit of work to fit. It sits higher than the 740 turbo Intercooler that was there. It is up close to an inch higher so when you put the clips on the ends stick out and look like ****. I have lots of spare rad clips so, where I wanted the clip to bend back down, I removed a small bit of metal, and bent it 90 deg. I took a chunk out because otherwise there is a sort of lip at the bend. Looks really clean, I will put a picture up when I get back home as that should be clearer.
Thank you!
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Old 01-17-2020, 02:54 PM   #15
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Thank you!
NP any questions just ask. Posting a pic for the first time so here goes - just got hit with winter so engine bay is a little dirty. Show’s rad clip raised with rubber washers, and the clip folded over at the ends.

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Old 01-17-2020, 02:54 PM   #16
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Maybe just the link on it’s own....

https://imgur.com/gallery/T2p9ML2


Success!

Engine bay after swap, only picture on my phone as I am at work...shhhhhh

https://imgur.com/a/J3ObyUy

Last edited by Matilda Car; 01-17-2020 at 03:14 PM..
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:18 PM   #17
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Mine is stock 940, so the drop in will probably be more straight forward. The improvement opinion that you posted is very reassuring- just what I wanted to hear! Hope you get your spool issue figured out.
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Old 01-17-2020, 06:10 PM   #18
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Hope you get your spool issue figured out.
Thanks man, all good as itís just tuning and tweaking really. No stress is my motto so all part of the fun! Glad to have the turbobricks community to bounce ideas off of and get real feedback. Iíve been lurking around for years and gained valuable info along the way.

Except for the brackets it was an easy swap so you should have no trouble, and yeah no regrets on my end despite the cost. I know it can handle whatever I want to throw at it and the noticeable difference/improvement made it worthwhile for me. If you need new pipes/couplers or can swing the price might as well get the whole package but the Intercooler alone would be worth it in my opinion at least.
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Old 01-17-2020, 09:18 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
Eh, you can lower the powerband a little but depending on what cam you have, you may make the top end less useful
Thanks just throwing that out there, if it was matched with an upgraded cam then it would be an idea I suppose. I should be able to sort this out without masking the issue by advancing the cam. Seems like wastegate/timing should be my focus.
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:58 PM   #20
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Yeah, you should be able to help it out with those two for sure, before adding more changes to things.
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Old 01-18-2020, 08:45 AM   #21
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Yeah, you should be able to help it out with those two for sure, before adding more changes to things.
Wise advice right there, hard to nail down where the issue is if you do too much at once. Gotta walk before I fly (down the road)
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Old 01-18-2020, 03:22 PM   #22
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You are learning grasshoppa. Lol
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Old 01-18-2020, 03:35 PM   #23
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Checked the bracket flex before install and it seemed pretty solid, I will check for leaks again - never hurts. Will check the wastegate for sure as well.
Even if the bracket doesn't flex boost will be slow if there isn't enough preload. Made that mistake myself when swapping to 19t. Got it to spool much faster with a bit of preload.
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:50 AM   #24
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Even if the bracket doesn't flex boost will be slow if there isn't enough preload. Made that mistake myself when swapping to 19t. Got it to spool much faster with a bit of preload.
Thanks, seems like a bit of a consensus here and I am definitely going to be checking that. Timing is good so I am moving to the wastegate and leaks.
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Old 02-02-2020, 10:51 AM   #25
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Got an update.

So I went to empty out my new catch can and the bloody thing had like a half litre of oil in it! WTF! I immediately suspect the vent cap since I have had issues with it, there is an internal baffle but that doesn’t seem to be enough. Seller was super helpful but it is either the cap or my car just doesn’t like it. I plumbed it off the separator box due to low funds so it *could* be clogged but after removing the cap I see zero signs of a clogged box so I am confident it was the cap.

So after removing the cap and plugging that fitting at the box there was an immediate improvement! So then I went around and checked and tightened everything yet again. I then pulled the vacc hose to the boost gauge and discovered a split under the dash. Basics, basics! Checked all hoses...but not under the dash, sheesh. Anyways, another improvement and then I reset the computer with everything way happier after that.

So acceleration improved and boost threshold lowered to around 2300 rpms. I was surprised how much the threshold lowered and the turbo lag has been reduced as well. Weather has been s$@t and too cold for working under the car so I will be adding more preload and an MBC as I am super curious to see if anything changes as a result.

I also had to deal with a coolant leak, it was right at the head and the block. Queue super sad face. I sighed and cleaned it all up so I could see where it was all coming from...then big smile as I traced it to the thermostat. Replaced and the tank shows that I am still losing coolant somewhere. Look under carpets, nope, change the cap? Bingo!

Last edited by Matilda Car; 02-02-2020 at 11:13 AM..
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